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Nathan Bendeich Australia (Verified User) Posts 1225 Dogs 13 / Races 0 31 Dec 2018 03:57
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I think we can all agree the title or heading this thread is a no brainer
There is only and always will be one Brett Lee
To be clear , Ive never said he was will be or even in the same league
Different sires different eras
Pretty sure the king was around when full litters didnt count for squat! So if anything Sh , who in this day and age is being marked at a harder and more prudent time period which would clearly have the king covered in this department!
Which statistically why in 3 different continents his %s are so good
He in my opinion isnt what I call a strike thrower ( meaning 6 duds in a litter and 1 grp winner )
He throws volume and consistency Like his other counter parts
Kinloch Brae Bella infrared
Kc and all is more your strike thrower out of the 3 in my opinion
Im clearly just pointing out sh avatars attributes and strengths for Poeple who are interested in using him , thus helping out whether he suits your broods qualities!
They might not be stars like Brett lees
But you wont have to have 5 goes to get 5 pups to the track either
He produces what I believe is what your brood was or her predecessors qualities were with a lovely calm attitude over all , but dont be fooled Given the right education and time they are animals ! On the squeakers
If you like the sound of these qualities and think thats what you value or are looking for in a pup then dont hesitate to try him
If you like a more high voltage pup , or your brood needs this , then hes not the sire for you ! Very simple !
Good luck all and enjoy
Ps well said Geoff
Nathan Bendeich Australia (Verified User) Posts 1225 Dogs 13 / Races 0 31 Dec 2018 04:09
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Geoff Collins wrote:
Matt James wrote:
Zipping rose's first 2 litters had talent among them also. Just people have taken notice this time because they are by sh avatar
Matt where is the talent in Zipping Rose previous litters .. theres only Har Pur Mur that has any half decent form winning 4 from 11 .. other than that, from 10 pups out of her first 2 litters (to Black Magic Opal and Fabregas) its: 20 st 2 wins 20 st 5 wins 09 st 1 win 26 st 4 wins 30 st 5 wins 19 st 1 win 2 others didnt race and one wasnt named so that's 135 starters for 22 wins ... ???
Simon, who had bred all 3 litters said that King Cratos is by far the fastest pup she has produced .. he ran 22.33 first look at Bulli ... 18.60 second look at Richmond and went PTP at Wenty in 24.16 ... he's a tall rangy dog with a ton of upside and one serious motor
Deserves to be at top of page
Only sad my little mighty fella didnt get a mention haha No hard feelings Geoff
Matt Griffiths Australia (Verified User) Posts 1955 Dogs 56 / Races 2 31 Dec 2018 06:47
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Simentone out of the black magic opal litter would have been pretty good if he didn't get injuries and eventually fall. Har purr mar out of the fabregas litter won at sandown on a Thursday night (city class). Not saying the avatar pup won't be better, just saying its not like the 1st 2 litters were completely useless
Nathan Bendeich Australia (Verified User) Posts 1225 Dogs 13 / Races 0 31 Dec 2018 08:28
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Matt James wrote:
Simentone out of the black magic opal litter would have been pretty good if he didn't get injuries and eventually fall. Har purr mar out of the fabregas litter won at sandown on a Thursday night (city class). Not saying the avatar pup won't be better, just saying its not like the 1st 2 litters were completely useless
Whats your point Matt ?
So its ok for Fernando to be credited for everything but what , does sh have to serve maiden only produces to get acknowledgement ???
She produced 1 city winner wow what a free leg up for Sh ???
If you cant see cratos could possibly be a cut above from his 2 starts only (everyone else can see it ) and who knows , maybe hes the Avatar that corrects your original train of thought and opens other potential breeders eyes !
They notice its an avatar coz its his turn to see if his wave of offspring are as good as Poeple hope !
Every early sire gets this publicity or focus If anything the supplier of Sh Avatar straws is rarely on here , its not as if he is on here plugging it everyday ??
Apologies Poeple for updating and informing of possible interesting runners App Sh Avatar has an unfair edge of publicity and gets too many city producing broods !
I hope u go and correct and pick apart the other 5 sires on the front page at the moment or any other week
Matt Griffiths Australia (Verified User) Posts 1955 Dogs 56 / Races 2 31 Dec 2018 10:03
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Nathan Bendeich wrote:
Matt James wrote:
Simentone out of the black magic opal litter would have been pretty good if he didn't get injuries and eventually fall. Har purr mar out of the fabregas litter won at sandown on a Thursday night (city class). Not saying the avatar pup won't be better, just saying its not like the 1st 2 litters were completely useless
Whats your point Matt ?
So its ok for Fernando to be credited for everything but what , does sh have to serve maiden only produces to get acknowledgement ???
She produced 1 city winner wow what a free leg up for Sh ???
If you cant see cratos could possibly be a cut above from his 2 starts only (everyone else can see it ) and who knows , maybe hes the Avatar that corrects your original train of thought and opens other potential breeders eyes !
They notice its an avatar coz its his turn to see if his wave of offspring are as good as Poeple hope !
Every early sire gets this publicity or focus If anything the supplier of Sh Avatar straws is rarely on here , its not as if he is on here plugging it everyday ??
Apologies Poeple for updating and informing of possible interesting runners App Sh Avatar has an unfair edge of publicity and gets too many city producing broods !
I hope u go and correct and pick apart the other 5 sires on the front page at the moment or any other week
You're taking things the wrong way. I'm not out to pick on sh avatar and at no point did anyone say he's had a unfair advantage by getting too many quality broodies. And you're right Fernando bale does get too much credit for the quality he's produced(but that's a different argument). Let it be known I actually backed your dog at bulli on Saturday night.
Matt Griffiths Australia (Verified User) Posts 1955 Dogs 56 / Races 2 31 Dec 2018 10:13
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I wish sh avatar nothing but luck at stud and there is nothing wrong with taking a liking to a sire and having a little brag when you train one sired by something you like. All I was saying is zipping rose, ebby miss etc. Had thrown some OK quality previously, but yes it looks like sh avatar does have the ability to take them to the next level
Kevin Wright Australia (Verified User) Posts 5708 Dogs 1 / Races 1 31 Dec 2018 10:28
It's in the blood ...Kiowa Mon Manny is by far the cheapest Proven imported sire available .to breeders in Australia ...
Konomi has the bloodline to really pop with Aussie bitches and he should be available to breeders shortly ....Southland Dogs are by far the best dogs racing in the USA ..
Some of the new IMPORTS SIRES here now in Australia are not the best dogs from the USA in fact they are Grade 1 country class at best ..IMO
If you go back to . Oshkosh Racey the sire of Penckse CLICK HERE You will find he carries a 4x4 of Tell you why .Here is his secound top offspring CLICK HERE All sires in this line have common proven crosses .....
Nathan i was one of the first people to praise SH Avatar and i tried like hell to get him but missed out and we got Kiowa Mon Manny instead .
SH Avatars damline is one of the best and i have Paddy Whacker whos dam is a litter sister to SH Avatars Dam You will find Avatar Broods will be like gold in years to come ...
Nathan Bendeich Australia (Verified User) Posts 1225 Dogs 13 / Races 0 31 Dec 2018 10:45
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I just dont understand any negativity or down talk towards any sire thats earnt his accolades on minimum opportunities or unjustified comparisons without actually understanding through first hand experience if their complaint or query has any merit at all
Like the top offspring that everyone watches at meadows and wenty cleaning up is a simple fact of 1000 offspring on the ground and supreme broods
So when I hear a sire lacks that anything special ......?
When minimal offspring numbers are involved ,sometimes you have to dig a little deeper then flicking on the tv for an hour
Youd be surprised how much info is out there that doesnt see the light of day until its regarded as hindsight
Thats all Im dribbling about
Well done Matt $$$ touchwood , stay with him
Ps never intended to brag ??? More inform and help with a tiny bit of evidence behind it to support the theory that I raised ,thats all Matt , like u say on another thread , Im also pretty proud of my fella , not sure if Im more excited about the day I get to bring him inside to watch tv with me some days when all is said and done or race him ???? Haha And I enjoy what I do so never short on words or convo
If your ever at the track come over and say gday and meet king , hell blow you away
Ps cheers Kev for that info , always up for a nice broody or even in the making of a good broody !
It will be another interesting topic Im sure in years to come Good chase , nice size and a great temperament Hope your right
Mick Whyte Australia (Verified User) Posts 1109 Dogs 23 / Races 3 31 Dec 2018 13:18
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Nathan Bendeich wrote:
I just dont understand any negativity or down talk towards any sire thats earnt his accolades on minimum opportunities or unjustified comparisons without actually understanding through first hand experience if their complaint or query has any merit at all
Like the top offspring that everyone watches at meadows and wenty cleaning up is a simple fact of 1000 offspring on the ground and supreme broods
So when I hear a sire lacks that anything special ......?
When minimal offspring numbers are involved ,sometimes you have to dig a little deeper then flicking on the tv for an hour
Youd be surprised how much info is out there that doesnt see the light of day until its regarded as hindsight
Thats all Im dribbling about
Well done Matt $$$ touchwood , stay with him
Ps never intended to brag ??? More inform and help with a tiny bit of evidence behind it to support the theory that I raised ,thats all Matt , like u say on another thread , Im also pretty proud of my fella , not sure if Im more excited about the day I get to bring him inside to watch tv with me some days when all is said and done or race him ???? Haha And I enjoy what I do so never short on words or convo
If your ever at the track come over and say gday and meet king , hell blow you away
Ps cheers Kev for that info , always up for a nice broody or even in the making of a good broody !
It will be another interesting topic Im sure in years to come Good chase , nice size and a great temperament Hope your right
I am getting terrific feedback on the temperament from the same dam line as a few of my broods, so I am getting excited to use him. I am getting told they are extremely relaxed pups in their kennels and that they are easy to educate and fire up when they need to. This feedback is exactly what I am looking in for a sire for my broodies line. This is something that also has interested me on a pedigree perspective - CLICK HERE
Nathan Bendeich Australia (Verified User) Posts 1225 Dogs 13 / Races 0 31 Dec 2018 18:42
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Well done mick and good luck with it all
I hope any info thats been supplied recently helped or consolidated any already thoughts or desires you had !
Wow Id like you or any specialist in pedigree to elaborate more on your pedigree perspective example
At a glance it looks like your outlining the common or possible niches with Sh that are similar to sires such as bartrim barcia and bekim bale !
Through bobniak and Lansley bale ?
Very interesting bud if I have this right
Cheeers again and great feedback ,please elaborate more if you can
Dean Townsend United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 2104 Dogs 19 / Races 0 31 Dec 2018 20:30
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Next Brett Lee lol. You got a share in the dog?
I think his dogs rated over 100 is very low for uk/Ire and aus. USA doesn't have ratings. Half a page of dogs rated over 100. His high % of major races comes from mostly USA runners. I'm not sure the quality is the same as Uk/Ire and aus dogs.
Dean Townsend United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 2104 Dogs 19 / Races 0 31 Dec 2018 20:31
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I looked at him for a bitch as his stats looked good but if you dig deeper it's not so appealing. He also has plenty of disqualified dogs
Mick Whyte Australia (Verified User) Posts 1109 Dogs 23 / Races 3 31 Dec 2018 21:30
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G'day Nathan, I am no pedigree expert by any means but I do love looking at them and try to work out "in my own way" what makes them click. Doubling of litter mates seems to be highly successful in my eyes. Here is another testmating that I was mucking around with one day that makes me think some of the Bale bitches, Where's Pedro bitches ect go well with some USA sires. CLICK HERE Ryan Vanderwert wrote this about SH Avatar on another post on Sh Avatar -
"Looking at this blokes pedigree he carries litterm8's Joe and Max Moss in the x path of his pedigree thru Aus cornerstone brood Elsie Moss. Looks like he may be just as good or dare I say it even better than Kinloch Brae at stud here, with a chance of nicking with a brood who carries other litterm8 Mister Moss (pref within 11 gens) in x, of which I imagine there will still be few, with Temlee still imposing in blood lines here.
Putting SH Avatar over a bitch carrying Temlee in the x path within 8 gens will give up a triple cross thru litter bros Joe/Max/and Mister Moss to cornerstone brood Elsie Moss within 12 gens, and therefore hopefully generate great intensity within the pedigree.
There's always a reason why outcrosses are successful here."
I have also read David Brasch say similar about Kinloch Brae.
Here is a link to the other topic on SH Avatar CLICK HERE
Mick Whyte Australia (Verified User) Posts 1109 Dogs 23 / Races 3 31 Dec 2018 22:02
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Also is it a coincidence that it seems the USA sires that have had success in Australia recently like Kinloch Brae, KC and All, Bella Infrared had early speed themselves as race dogs.
Ryan Vanderwert Australia (Verified User) Posts 5958 Dogs 8 / Races 0 31 Dec 2018 23:31
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Mick, Avatar carries Elsie Moss in the x path through litter bros Max & Joe Moss in the 9th and 10th generation respectively which is reasonably standard here in Aus, however with a broody who introduces Temlee in x into the mix that is a huge amount of intensity being created even though it is fair way back in the pedigree with that triple cross in x.
Kinloch on the hand gives up Elsie Moss in the 6th generation - you just cant get Elsie that close with any stud dog anymore, and once again you introduce a brood carrying Temlee in x.............well you just give your broody a real chance don't you if she has what it takes.
The only stud that comes close that I know of here in Aus is Our Toyman CLICK HERE who carries Elsie Moss in x in the 7th generation through his grandam Lady Cuthbert CLICK HERE . Of course you need a broody to carry littermates Miller's Moss and/or Rose Moss (and not Temlee), to possibly create the maximum intensity through littermates in x.
It's amazing Our Toyman is not patronised a lot more as a sire considering he carries the closest access to Elsie Moss in the x path than any other Aus sire I know of.
There is no doubt that Elsie Moss is making a massive resurgence in Aus pedigrees due to Kinloch & Avatar but lets not forget the original x path intensity (which Our Toyman now carries) that catapulted Elsie Moss to cornerstone brood status in Aus breeding :
Web of Silence: 6 x 7 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss Worth Doing: 5 x 5 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss Bit Chili: 9 x 8 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss Cee Four: 9 x 9 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss Dyna Lachlan: 8 x 9 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss Prince of Tigers: 6 x 7 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss Fantasy Fortune: 6 x 7 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss Bright Ebony: 9 x 8 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss Big Moose: 8 x 8 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss Fox Hunt 6 x 5 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss (thru Mister Moss & Honey Lass)
Their are 3 sets of littermates here. The most prominent thru Elsie Moss are Miller's Moss & Clay Moss, however in Bright Ebony case for example it's Mister Moss and Pearl Moss & Fox Hunt is different again as shown above.
imo it's always wise to remember even when you outcross that it's important to linebreed in the x path through litter mates or full blood relations to preferably a cornerstone brood with a view to possibly produce the maximum intensity.
Enter new outcross stud Flying Fired Up CLICK HERE who carries Elsie Moss in x through once again her son Max Moss(similar to Avatar & Kinloch) this time in the 8th generation. This is evidenced down his damline to K's Flak CLICK HERE . Your broody wld need to carry Temlee (or even his sister Viola Lee) within 8 generations or less in x for possible maximum effect. Cheers.
Nathan Bendeich Australia (Verified User) Posts 1225 Dogs 13 / Races 0 01 Jan 2019 00:11
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Dean townsend wrote:
I looked at him for a bitch as his stats looked good but if you dig deeper it's not so appealing. He also has plenty of disqualified dogs
Not sure whats more alarming
Such contrasting results between 3 different continents
Leading sire in matings in the US (for obvious reasons)
A very common finding between a lot of litters that is calm easy to work with and good chase in AUS
Or that you havent joined the dots and concluded 1 place is the odd one out in results that are commonly called here low !
You were advised by someone who knows the line better then anyone
Doug Riches wrote:
Ben George wrote:
I have just got my two Sh Avatars x Scissor Queens 16 months old and Im very happy........... certainly a under used site imo
Ben, Best of luck with these pups. I know Avatars bloodline very well, I whelped his mom, and had a all American record breaker from his moms sister. True grit in this bloodline. I never raised a litter with more prey drive. These were Canadian born and raised. One thing I would keep in mind the bloodline is built with both speed and power. Tailoring it to the right female, and tracks you intend to run are very important I believe. I have watched from afar, and think too many times American bloodlines, are given up on early as they don't get broke in properly or started on the right kind of track. Avatar has helped put the number one bitch in the USA , as the top producer for 2017, and looking good for 2018, MONEY MAID. I too, whelped , raised and trained her. I was going to breed her to my dog Paddy Whacker, and believe would have had great results as well. The females from both these males should not be overlooked as producers IMO. I will be watching for your pups , and wish you the best of luck with them. Nice breeding !!
A few things to look at dean would be techniques used ! And even further detail mentioned above .
At present it doesnt add up from your end in the few or concerning stats yous have presented ! Can anyone put up % s on Aust Avatars that have DISQ or awkward ....whatever that means ?? Next to their names or stewards reports !
Calling Bruce teague and your monster memory computer drive !
Ill have a side bet that its less then our top 5 sires at present ! If any at all
Kevin Lindsay wrote:
Looking at his IE/UK litters he has 9 racing with 57 raced runners.
Of the nine broods four (44.44%) have produced 7 (12.28%) dogs between them with Disqualified or Awkward against their race comments.
The four broods were by Top Honcho, Iso Octane, Vans Escalade and Where's Pedro.
He certainly can throw fast animals to certain lines but I think it would be worth waiting before passing judgement.
Cheers Mick and Ryan for that extra info , def worth keeping in mind ,gold !
Good luck all
Mick Whyte Australia (Verified User) Posts 1109 Dogs 23 / Races 3 01 Jan 2019 00:57
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Thanks again Ryan for another informative post, In Avatars case is Joe Moss is behind K's Broadway ? and I am having trouble finding Max Moss in "X" ?
Ryan Vanderwert Australia (Verified User) Posts 5958 Dogs 8 / Races 0 01 Jan 2019 01:10
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If you click on ML Hello Dolly CLICK HERE in Avatars ped CLICK HERE you'll see Joe in the top half 5th gen & Max on the dam side in the 4th gen. Both are in x. Cheers.
Mick Whyte Australia (Verified User) Posts 1109 Dogs 23 / Races 3 01 Jan 2019 01:43
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Ryan Vanderwert wrote:
If you click on ML Hello Dolly CLICK HERE in Avatars ped CLICK HERE you'll see Joe in the top half 5th gen & Max on the dam side in the 4th gen. Both are in x. Cheers.
Thanks mate.
Edward (Ted) Howard Australia (Verified User) Posts 1195 Dogs 16 / Races 0 01 Jan 2019 02:17
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The Avatars I bred from a non chasing bitch must have thrown to the bitch as out of seven only one chased as for temperament they were the nicest friendliest dogs I have bred easy to handle. The majority as I see it of his good dogs seem to come from Ebby Miss. He has a long way to go to be as good as Brett Lee. Cheers Ted.