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Paul Dicks Australia (Verified User) Posts 10281 Dogs 120 / Races 252 11 Dec 2022 13:14
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For every Miami Fernando there would be 10 City Class bitches doing similar things. Look at the top 20 dogs in Australia at the moment. I'm struggling to see more than a couple from non City Class broods.
Darren Leeson Australia (Verified User) Posts 1343 Dogs 154 / Races 139 11 Dec 2022 19:24
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Thats a flawed argument. As Mepunga Ruby for example shows her 4th, 5th and 6th dams never won in the city! But, you sure could make a great case for breeding with them. Such as Benjis Babe was a litter sister to Sobbing Sal dam of Brett Lee, from a litter sister to Highly Blessed.
In Mepunga Rubys case, you could argue how important outcross has played a part in her. Just as it has in Amron Boy!
Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 19488 Dogs 15268 / Races 1856 11 Dec 2022 21:14
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Paul Dicks wrote:
For every Miami Fernando there would be 10 City Class bitches doing similar things. Look at the top 20 dogs in Australia at the moment. I'm struggling to see more than a couple from non City Class broods.
Its a matter of percentages as well.
There would be a higher percentage of city winning broods bred from , than non-city winning broods
Most of the latter end up as pets on someones couch and never bred with
City winning broods are a greater assistance in pup sales
Each to their own I guess
Paul Dicks Australia (Verified User) Posts 10281 Dogs 120 / Races 252 11 Dec 2022 23:25
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Paul Dicks wrote:
I admire your tenacity in defending unraced and poorly performed brood bitches. But look at your own best results, all your tpp quality pups (from my memory) have come from classy race bitches.
Mark Staines Australia (Verified User) Posts 4499 Dogs 70 / Races 14 11 Dec 2022 23:39
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Champion sires can upgrade Dams !
Darren Leeson Australia (Verified User) Posts 1343 Dogs 154 / Races 139 12 Dec 2022 02:58
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22kg Pennybacker 63: 7-9-9; WPk 30.22, PM $22K isnt exactly classy. I dare say she would have been a giveaway on a pup basis type bitch. If I had have offered her as a brood.
Still doesnt change the fact - trace the dam line of Mepunga Ruby and 4th, 5th dams dont fit your argument. Theres only one reason Mepunga Ruby exists. Breeders breeding with non-city winning broods!
Paul Dicks Australia (Verified User) Posts 10281 Dogs 120 / Races 252 12 Dec 2022 14:11
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The discussion is about the fact that City Class bitches are more likely to produce top progeny than unraced or non city class broods. So your argument that Mepunga Ruby's damline doesn't have City Class bitches is completely irrelevant. We know it can happen, but it's less likely, which is precisely my point.
Also thanks for highlighting your best recent pups have come from a City Class bitch, that's exactly what Pennybacker is. So you are confirming my theory not debunking it. Just like all your previous successful litters. The challenge if you accept it, is to breed a litter on pedigree alone. I tried it and failed miserably.
Darren Leeson Australia (Verified User) Posts 1343 Dogs 154 / Races 139 12 Dec 2022 20:14
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Funny though, other than Wheeler lined bitches in the top 8 in 2022 - all others have non-city winning broods in their immediate dam line.
Wow Shes Fast - 3rd dam 14 starts 1-0-5 PM $2,195 Mepunga Ruby - 5th, 6th dams Jungle Deuce - 4th dam Lala Kiwi - 4th dam Zipping Kyrgios - 3rd dam
All very well banging on about more likely and Sandro made the point, more city winning bitches would be bred with than non-city winning. But, likely the vast majority of these city winning broods, you have a poorly performed racer close up in the dam line.
My whole point, is you shouldnt just write off any poorly performed brood. As Amron Boys dam Miami Fernando or Wow Shes Fasts 3rd dam shows.
Hopefully, Dragonfly Diva is that for us. We definitely picked her up on pedigree first and foremost. Being by older sire Wheres Pedro. Her racing traits second. Its all about having a crack and thats my whole reason for debating this topic. As, thankfully some breeders do go the alternate route and we get Amron Boy and Wow Shes Fast come along.
Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 19488 Dogs 15268 / Races 1856 13 Dec 2022 02:56
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Veloso, the dam of a good litter by Aston Dee Bee and a very hot litter by Fernando Bale only won 3 races from 41 starts, 2 were at The Meadows but were Wednesday meetings, so technically not a city meeting
Perhaps she may have been a trial track champion, but never really showed it on the track , only the Bartolo's will know
But she is superbly bred by Brett Lee x Tricky Shelley (Spiral Nikita x Paua To Burn)
Make No Promise, won its maiden at Sandown on Sunday in 29.33
EXTERNAL LINK two others have won their maidens there in 29.55, 29.70
Paul Dicks Australia (Verified User) Posts 10281 Dogs 120 / Races 252 13 Dec 2022 05:47
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You mentioned that less Non City winners have litters compared to City Class bitches. Do you have any figures to back up your argument or are you just surmising? If over 80% of the top 20 dogs for the last decade come from City Class bitches (which I've checked and confirmed). The to fit your argument there would be 4 City Class broods to every 1 Non city class bitch to satisfy your theory.
Paul Dicks Australia (Verified User) Posts 10281 Dogs 120 / Races 252 13 Dec 2022 05:56
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Sandro Bechini wrote:
Veloso, the dam of a good litter by Aston Dee Bee and a very hot litter by Fernando Bale only won 3 races from 41 starts, 2 were at The Meadows but were Wednesday meetings, so technically not a city meeting
Perhaps she may have been a trial track champion, but never really showed it on the track , only the Bartolo's will know
But she is superbly bred by Brett Lee x Tricky Shelley (Spiral Nikita x Paua To Burn)
Make No Promise, won its maiden at Sandown on Sunday in 29.33
EXTERNAL LINK two others have won their maidens there in 29.55, 29.70
The Bartolo's would have the choice of the best broods in the country, I'm sure they knew what they were doing using this bitch.
Paul Dicks Australia (Verified User) Posts 10281 Dogs 120 / Races 252 13 Dec 2022 05:58
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Sandro Bechini wrote:
Veloso, the dam of a good litter by Aston Dee Bee and a very hot litter by Fernando Bale only won 3 races from 41 starts, 2 were at The Meadows but were Wednesday meetings, so technically not a city meeting
Perhaps she may have been a trial track champion, but never really showed it on the track , only the Bartolo's will know
But she is superbly bred by Brett Lee x Tricky Shelley (Spiral Nikita x Paua To Burn)
Make No Promise, won its maiden at Sandown on Sunday in 29.33
EXTERNAL LINK two others have won their maidens there in 29.55, 29.70
The Bartolo's would have the choice of the best broods in the country, I'm sure they knew what they were doing using this bitch. Likewise using a brood who is by one of the greatest sires from one of the greatest bitches in NZ, who in turn is out of one of Australia's greats is hardly rocket science.
Paul Dicks Australia (Verified User) Posts 10281 Dogs 120 / Races 252 13 Dec 2022 06:04
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Darren Leeson wrote:
Funny though, other than Wheeler lined bitches in the top 8 in 2022 - all others have non-city winning broods in their immediate dam line.
Wow Shes Fast - 3rd dam 14 starts 1-0-5 PM $2,195 Mepunga Ruby - 5th, 6th dams Jungle Deuce - 4th dam Lala Kiwi - 4th dam Zipping Kyrgios - 3rd dam
All very well banging on about more likely and Sandro made the point, more city winning bitches would be bred with than non-city winning. But, likely the vast majority of these city winning broods, you have a poorly performed racer close up in the dam line.
My whole point, is you shouldnt just write off any poorly performed brood. As Amron Boys dam Miami Fernando or Wow Shes Fasts 3rd dam shows.
Hopefully, Dragonfly Diva is that for us. We definitely picked her up on pedigree first and foremost. Being by older sire Wheres Pedro. Her racing traits second. Its all about having a crack and thats my whole reason for debating this topic. As, thankfully some breeders do go the alternate route and we get Amron Boy and Wow Shes Fast come along.
You are doing it again. No one is saying you shouldn't breed from a non city class bitch or that they can't produce quality pups, just that it's less likely.
Sandro Bechini Australia (Verified User) Posts 19488 Dogs 15268 / Races 1856 13 Dec 2022 19:42
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Paul Dicks wrote:
You mentioned that less Non City winners have litters compared to City Class bitches. Do you have any figures to back up your argument or are you just surmising? If over 80% of the top 20 dogs for the last decade come from City Class bitches (which I've checked and confirmed). The to fit your argument there would be 4 City Class broods to every 1 Non city class bitch to satisfy your theory.
Paul
Its not a theory, no one sits here and create theories.
I have never sat down and counted the numbers of non-city winning broods vs city winning broods bred with.
However, we all know for a fact that generally. for most breeders,, pure dollars and cents theory will rule the roost. Thats the premise I go by in this discussion. Its a fact, not a theory.
Most breeders will be putting their best performed bitch forward to breed with the best and most popular sire they can afford.
Mainly because of the cost of breeding a litter, getting around the $10k mark all up gives them a better chance of selling their pups.
I think its a natural thing to gravitate to the best and fastest bitch we can possibly breed with
One question, she could have been incredibly fast but had convictions, are these traits you would breed with a 29.3 Sandow winner or would you breed with a 5 tenths slower sister , say 29.80 at Sandown, who was a hard chaser? Or breed with neither?
As a breeder which trait would you consider more important for the breeding pool going forward?
I can only guess why the Bartolos bred with this bitch, but to have an educated guess, they have been breeding with the same line for yonks , they generally don't sell their pups so for them the bitches race performance may not mean a lot, especially if they knew she was fast in private.
They are true breeders as they have maintained their line and bred with it for a couple of decades or more
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